- BILL MOYERS: We turn now from money and the American
economy to money and American politics. Faithful viewers of NOW know this
is one of our favorite subjects. It's also a passion for my guest, Republican
Senator John McCain of Arizona. He's just written a new book in which he
honestly discusses how he got tripped up by too much money in politics,
and about other subjects as well. It's called Worth Fighting For.
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- Well, he has a fight on his hands with the campaign finance
law that was recently passed which he sponsored along with Democratic Senator
Russell Feingold of Wisconsin. That law is being attacked from many sides:
by the two political parties, by the Federal Election Commission, and in
the courts. Welcome to NOW.
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Thank you, Bill.
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- BILL MOYERS: Were you able to follow the hearings before
those three judges in Washington last week?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I was briefed on it. I was back
in Arizona, but my people were there, and they gave me a pretty good report.
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- BILL MOYERS: I have with me some of the documents revealed
in those hearings. They confirm everything you've been saying for years
now, how the system really works: give us the money and we'll give you
the legislation. Do you think your colleagues will begin to listen to you
now?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Well, I don't know if they will
or not. You know, this is a very addictive system. It's so much easier
to raise money in hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars than in
one thousand-dollar or two thousand-dollar contributions. But I think they're
tired of it. There was recent comments by Senator Zell Miller of Georgia
where he said after a period of fund raising he felt like a prostitute
after a busy day.
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- BILL MOYERS: Can a government run by prostitutes and
addicts claim to be legitimate?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I don't think so, and I think what
happens is that the public interest is not served; the special interests
are. We passed a homeland security bill, which was important. The House
of Representatives passed it and put some special interests provisions
on it. One was, guess who for, a major drug company, who had been huge
contribution...contributors in the last campaign.
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- And let me remind you, recent data shows that the pharmaceutical
companies who are the largest single contributors, they spent about $30
million dollars in the last campaign insulating incumbents from a tax for
not having passed prescription drug bills for seniors.
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- So we were able to put in those special interest provisions,
but we didn't have time to take care of the unemployed whose benefits will
soon run out.
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- BILL MOYERS: Every version of the National Energy Legislation
provides billions of dollars in subsidies for the fossil fuel industry
that has poured millions of dollars into electing a compliant Congress
and a White House. Do you smell a rat there?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I don't see it as a whole lot different
from a lot of other legislation that goes through the Congress which special
interests have enormous influence on. In 1996 we passed a bill called the
Telecommunications Reform Act of 1996. Telecommunications issues, as you
know, are incredibly complex. Lobbyists wrote that bill. Since then we
have had no real reform of the telecommunications to say the least, and
a consumer has paid more in the cost of long distance calls, cable rates,
the list goes on and on. But those special interests have done very, very
well.
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- BILL MOYERS: Do you think Vice President Cheney should
release the names of those industry...energy industry officials with whom
he met secretly when he was drafting the National Energy Policy?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Sure. I've always believed in open
government, and that should be part of it, absolutely.
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- BILL MOYERS: The Non-Partisan Center for Responsive Politics
says less than one-tenth of one percent of the country gave 85 percent,
almost 85 percent, of all itemized contributions in our recent elections.
What does that tell you, Senator?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Well, it tells me that it's huge
amounts of money contributed by a handful of Americans that are dictating
the legislative agenda here in Congress.
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- BILL MOYERS: If you were an ordinary citizen do you think
you'd have a chance up against that system?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: No. I do not.
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- BILL MOYERS: The Federal Election Commission has left
some very large loopholes as you indicate in the...in your bill. Those
loopholes will allow millions of dollars in soft money to still go to the
political parties -- the very thing you were trying to prevent.
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- Now, the American people pay to support that commission,
but it functions as a lap dog frankly for the two parties. Why don't we
just abolish it?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: We're going to introduce legislation
in January to fundamentally restructure or abolish it. And that will be
hard, because both parties are very satisfied with a commission that will
gridlock.
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- Now, the reason why the Federal Election Commission passed
regulations that created loopholes in these laws is because they had a
lame duck democrat whose term had expired who was voting with the three
republican commissioners.
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I demanded that the lame duck democrat
be replaced by Senator Daschle's nominee, which was the way that we usually
operate, a republican and a democrat. And guess what? The administration
gave me their word that they would appoint her as a recess appointment
because they had done that with the other Republican.
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- And they waited until after the regulations were issued
before giving her a recess appointment despite the fact that in writing
I had gotten their word that she would be recess appointed in October.
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- BILL MOYERS: If you can't trust them, why can we?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I don't...I can't answer that, except
to say that in 20 years around this town I've never had my word...I've
never had people break their word to me in this fashion.
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- BILL MOYERS: You said earlier this week also that while
President Bush signed the McCain-Feingold bill, his people are doing everything
behind the scenes they can to weaken it as much as possible. Why don't
you call the President and ask him to lay off?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Perhaps I should, Bill. Perhaps
I should.
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- BILL MOYERS: Who is it who was suing to declare unconstitutional
the McCain-Feingold Bill, and why do they consider it unconstitutional?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Well, I think you just look at those
who are involved in the suit. It's public knowledge. The ACLU, the NRA,
National Right to Life, The Republican Party, the Democratic Party of California.
You know, it's public knowledge.
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- BILL MOYERS: With your own White House double crossing
you with your own party and the democratic party trying to undermine your
bill, what hope do you have of changing the system from within?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: We'll keep going to the American
people, Bill, and they will respond just as they responded in the past.
We've got a little army out there of people who are supporting us on reform
issues, and they'll continue to do so. And again, I thinkI cannot overstate
the importance of Russ Feingold in this fight. He's an honest and decent
man, and a person whowe have stuck together through thick and thin.
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- BILL MOYERS: It's so clear that both parties have become
so corrupted by money that you can't change the system from inside the
bordello. I mean, would you consider running for President in the year
2004 as an independent?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: No, I would not, Bill. I don't envision
that scenario. I'll keep up the crusade for reform, but I had my run at
it and I'm proud of it, but you know, I don't want to.... As much as I
admired Harold Stassen I don't want to be one of those [LAUGHTER].
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- BILL MOYERS: But Harold Stassen aside, most of the momentum
for reforming politics has come from third parties whose candidate ran
on principle and on ideas. I mean, wouldn't you like to go down in history
that way?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Yes, but I also have to consider
viability. I also think that I can make reforms within the republican party
as I just did with campaign finance reform, although any reform has to
be bipartisan, we all know that.
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- I'll continue the struggle and fight, but I think it's
not.... If I thought it was do-able, maybe I would consider it. But I still
believe in the party of Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt, and I want
to see us return to those.... Theodore Roosevelt was the great reformer.
He took on the robber barons. He was a great conservationist. He...you
know, we've got to return to his kinds of principles in my view.
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- BILL MOYERS: Senator, in your home state of Arizona,
a number of candidates recently were elected to office running with public
funding, public financing. Would you support it? Would you endorse, what
do you think about that experiment there?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: I think it's good overall. I think
it needs to, like any other new experiment, it needs to have some wrinkles
taken out of it. But we had more people run for public office than any
time in the history of our state, and that's what it was all about.
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- As I say, there's some fixes that need to be made, but
it was a new experiment, and overall I think was very successful and interestingly
the ones who are running, you know what they're telling me? They said,
surprise, surprise, I spend my time talking to voters not to contributors.
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- BILL MOYERS: Do you think that could become a model for
the nation as a whole?
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Absolutely.
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- BILL MOYERS: Thank you very much, Senator McCain, for
joining us
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- SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN: Thank you, Bill.
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- http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_mccain.html
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