- Former parliamentary deputy from the closed Welfare Party
(RP) Hasim Hasimi, who is of Kurdish origin said that in order for the
chaos that has governed northern Iraq, Iraq would have to be divided in
to three separate states.
- Hasimi said that the United States grounds for invading
Iraq, "eliminating weapons of mass destruction" was a big lie,
noting that it would be closer to the truth to say they invaded Iraq to
topple a violent regime. He said U.S. intelligence was constantly proved
wrong and claimed that the resistance was increasing because they were
ignoring the religious sensitivities of the people. The biggest danger
in the near future is a Shiite-Sunni conflict, noting that this would not
only create local problems, but affect the whole region, including Pakistan.
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- Hasimi said the cooperation of Kurds in northern Iraq
with the U.S. military had made Europeans, especially Germans, less interested
in the region. He also believes that U.S. troop presence would continue
no matter who became the president of the U.S. this fall.
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- TDN: What's happening in northern Iraq? What do Kurds
in our region want to do?
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- HASIMI: Actually there have been many positive things
happening in the region. Northern Iraq also has a history. The Iraq Kurdistan
Democratic Party (KDP) has a 67-year history. There has been resistance
to the Iraqi government for the last four generations. This resistance
sometimes ended in defeat, resulting in an exodus. Masacres were perpetrated
against them. Don't get the impression that they are fighting against other
ethnic or religious communities. Kurds have never acted against an ethnic
group. They always tried to protect the democratic and fundamental rights.
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- TDN: Two large Kurdish groups cooperated with the U.S.
during its invasion. The KDP leader Massoud Barzani and Patriotic Union
of Kurdistan (PUK) leader Jalal Talabani united in a single government.
Is this unification a permanent structure or temporary process?
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- HASIMI: This is the Middle East. Anything can happen.
However, the point we have reached today shows that the unification is
permanent. Kurds are a nation that learns from history. This unification
was produced after the 1991 Gulf War, with the cooperation of U.S. President
Bush George Bush, British Prime Minister John Major and Turkish President
Turgut Ozal. We contributed to the formation of such a status of this region.
Turkey, the U.S., France and Britain cooperated. We know later France removed
its support. All these countries are strong militarily and have their own
agendas. There were regional conflicts. Turkey supported Barzani and Talabani
during its conflict with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). After the capture
of PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan, our attitude changed. Our policy deviated
from one of support to one of disregard, because we had eliminated the
PKK. That was unfortunate.
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- There are reports in newspapers that Turkish intelligence
was sleeping while CIA agents were conducting their business. I would like
to say that it is definitely untrue. It was the CIA that was defeated.
The current state in Iraq clearly shows how good the U.S. intelligence
services are.
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- US-Kurdish cooperation
- TDN: What have northern Iraqi Kurds done in the last
ten years? How equipped are they to govern themselves?
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- HASIMI: I believe they have produced a great mechanism
in the past 12 years. International links, infrastructure, political attitudes
were formulated. They have shown to the world that they can govern themselves.
Even if we don't approve of it, the U.S., Britain and other western countries
have accepted the Kurdish form of government. Many leftists criticize the
Kurds' cooperation with an occupying force. I don't think this is the right
attitude. Kurds' experience with the Iraqi regime was very upsetting. The
previous Ba'ath Party government was very violent. There was no other option
but to fully support any power that was willing to topple that government.
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- TDN: However, in the past the U.S. abandoned the Kurds
to the Ba'ath regime. Isn't there the same risk now?
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- HASIMI: Not only once, but the U.S. has abandoned the
Kurds three times in the past. First of all I have to clear up something.
I am not naive enough to believe the U.S. cites as its reasons to invade
Iraq. The U.S. grounds for invasion was not true. Invasion in order to
eliminate weapons of mass destruction was a huge lie. If it had said that
their intention was to topple a violent regime that mistreated its own
people, it might have found more supporters. Here we are faced, once again,
with the deficiencies of U.S. intelligence. We can also see an important
role of the Greater Middle East initiative in these matters. The details
of the initiative will be announced at the NATO summit in Istanbul in June.
We can also see that European countries will be ignored in favor of Eastern
Asian and Middle Eastern countries in U.S. foreign policy. U.S. presence
can already be seen in the Balkans, Afghanistan, Iraq and Central Asia.
In other words, we see the slow realization of a giant process.
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- I am noting these in order to make clear that the United
States grounds for invasion of Iraq were not true. Yes. Kurds cooperated
with the U.S., but the KDP leader Barzani has great reservations about
the U.S. attitude. U.S. officials in Iraq made no attempt to get involved
with local communities. It had no intention of understanding the people.
It constantly squandered opportunities. For example, it did not utilize
the capture of Saddam Hussein. If the U.S. had implemented a serious social,
political and economic program after Saddam's capture, things might have
been different. They ignored the opinions of people who knew what was happening
on the streets. They continue to do what they believe is right. This has
to change.
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- Fear of Shiite-Sunni conflict
- TDN: Shiite groups, who were with the U.S. in the beginning
are now involved in clashes. Is the U.S. loosing its allies in Iraq?
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- HASIMI: The largest Shiite group in Iraq is the Islamic
Action Party. Shiites are also divided among themselves. The most important
Shiite leader is Ayatollah Ali Husseini Sistani. Then comes Hakim Bakr
and Mukteda Sadr. What I am really fearful of is a Sunni-Shiite conlict
in the near future. We see they are cooperating lately, but we can never
discount such a conflict in a multi ethnic Iraq.
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- TDN: Majority of Kurds in Iraq are Sunnis, aren't they?
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- HASIMI: All Kurds are Sunnis, apart from a few. Most
Turkmens are Shiites. I am sure our officials are not aware of this fact.
Sunni fanatics ruled Iraq for many years. During Ottoman times, Sunnis
were dominant. I believe their cooperation will not last long. A spark
might lead to a larger conflict. Regional countries might be affected.
It might even involve Pakistan. I am Sunni. The Sunni misperception towards
Shiites also exists in our country.
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- TDN: Can the Sunni-Shiite conflict turn into an ethnic
Arab-Kurd conflict?
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- HASIMI: No. We have to assess this matter. In the past,
Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul invited some heads of small tribes to Turkey.
These were not important groups. However, they were treated carefully here.
One of these groups had cooperated with Saddam in killing 4-5,000 Kurds.
Some tribes were allowed in the north after the first Gulf-War. The tribal
chiefs that came to Turkey were not among these, because they had perpetrated
many crimes with the Saddam regime in the past. What our Foreign Ministry
should do is maintain relations with the main players. Today, the main
group with the power is the Kurds. Sunnis and Shiites want a regime more
closely based on religion. Kurds are our neighbors, brothers and relatives.
A large proportion of Kurds are conservative Muslims, but they are more
liberal, democratic and secular. Turkey's regime and the main principles
of this regime will force us to cooperate with Kurds.
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- AK Party's Iraq policy
- TDN: How do you rate the AK Party's Iraq policy?
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- HASIMI: Actually developments in Iraq favor Turkey. AK
Party government's policy was varying. The government promised the U.S.
that it would allow American troops in to the country, but Parliament rejected
it. The relations with the U.S. only normalized after the second government
proposal was passed. As a result, things on Cyprus also developped in our
favor. The U.S. sees Turkey as its founding stone in its Greater Middle
East Initiative. This is my opinion.
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- TDN: You said Kurds suffered a lot in the past. However,
it is the Arabs of Iraq that are suffering now. Do you think Kurds feel
a sense of responsibility for the developments?
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- HASEMI: It is impossible to feel pitty as a human being.
The human being is holy. Many people faced persecution in the past. For
example, Jews faced genocide. The world never forgot that. The Arab world's
policy is very insincere. They use the Palestinian problem to call for
Jihad, while not granting the rights it asks for the Palestinian people
to its own people. That's a fact. Here, the Greater Middle East initiative
is very important. If it is based on conservative Christianity, it will
end in a great defeat.
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- TDN: What do you understand of this project?
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- HASIMI: This is not only about oil. Moreover, the U.S.
doesn't get much oil from the region. The region's oil goes to other countries.
Some are talking about the objective of preventing another boycott like
the one OPEC implemented in the past. Some say that conservative Christians
view Islam as a threat. If this turns into a conflict between Islam and
Christianity, that will be the greatest tragedy.
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- There are four lines of thought dominating the U.S. right
now. Some believe the country should concentrate on domestic economy in
order to get stronger. Others argue that the resources of the world could
not be left in the hands of a few countries and see this as a threat against
their security. I think this is just a conflict of interests. The puppet
regimes in the Arab world, sustained by western support, have to go, and
that human rights, economic liberalization and political rights should
be ensured. However, this conflicts with what we see on the ground. The
U.S. both supports these ideals and then supports the unilateral and violent
actions of Israeli prime Minister Ariel Sharon.
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- Special reasons behind Iraqi resistance
- TDN: The most intense resistance to the U.S. occupation
comes from the Sunni triangle. Is their a special reason for this?
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- HASIMI: Yes. The region was supported by Saddam for many
years. Secondly, the leading members of the former regime went underground
after the war. Thirdly, the religious sentiments in this region is closer
to Wahabism. Another reason was the insensitivity of occupying powers to
the values of the land.
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- Another fact that is often missed is the lack of a charismatic
leader in the country. This lack is not felt in the Kurdish regions. Barzani
and Talabani fill this gap. There are no such personalities among the Arab
population, which opens the way for Ladin type people to dominate the agenda.
Fanatical groups have arrived in the country.
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- TDN: How do such foreign elements enter the country?
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- HASIMI: Borders are not controlled. I believe some Arab
countries that see their country as the next to be occupied are also aiding
such forces. While some object to the U.S. initiative arguing that democracy
cannot be imposed from the outside, they refuse to democratize their country.
The U.S. argues that its fight is against anti-democratic regimes. I believe
Iran and Syria are the next targets.
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- TDN: What is Iran's attitude towards Iraq and the Kurds?
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- HASIMI: Iran's, Turkey's and Syria's attitudes towards
the Kurds are usually very similar. However, Iran's policies are more clever.
Iranian Kurds had supported the Ayatullahs in toppling the Shah. They were
promised freedom that did not materialize. Now, Syria faces a Kurdish problem.
It already had a suitable environment. If a country doesn't give its people
the right to get identity cards, own property, that community might become
open to outside influences. Almost 60 percent of Kurds in Syria don't have
identity papers. That's why Turkey should set an example. Turkey is the
only country in the region that has an elected government.
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- Presidents may change, but not the policy
- TDN: Next fall, presidential elections will be held in
the U.S. Will it affect the region? What will happen if they withdraw?
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- HASIMI: Even if the U.S: President loses the elections,
the U.S. will not pull out from the region. Bush is trying to rush things,
before he is forced to agree on a process with his European allies. However,
the policy is not personal. It is an administrative policy. There will
be elections held in Iraq. The new government may ask U.S. troops to leave
the country. I am saying this, knowing the Shiiites are a majority. If
the elections are not free and fair, the conflict might intensify. Almost
all Arab governments are nationalists and they don't like Kurds. The U.S.
used to support regional governments, not the people. The strange thing
is that it had to fight with two regimes it supported in the past. Saddam's
Iraq and Afghanistan's Taliban.
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- Iraq should be divided into three
- TDN: Is there a way to find permanent peace in Iraq?
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- HASEMI: The chaos in Iraq will not end shortly. Many
are dying. Mosques are being bombed. Kurdish leaders repeatedly said that
they had no intention to divide the country. However, new developments
take place every day. A new policy is constructed, before the previous
one is implemented. That's why I believe Iraq will eventually divide into
three parts. A southern Shiite state, a central Sunni state and a northern
Kurdish state. Nationalist Arabs don't like Kurds. There are 22 Arab countries.
While these 22 countries have significant oil reserves, the total of their
income is lower than Spain's. The reason behind this is the division and
gap between the people and their governments.
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- Breaking point with Europe
- TDN: Did relations between Iraqi Kurds and European countries,
apart from Britain, suffer due to their cooperation with the U.S.? Did
European countries lose interest in the Kurds?
-
- HASIMI: I think there was a breaking point. For years,
we have known that European countries have been getting closer to Kurds.
However, they kept silent about the Iraq affair. European interest towards
former Democracy Party (DEP) deputy Leyla Zana is competely different.
However, we see that Germany, which was very interested in Kurds, is now
cool towards them. The same can be said for France. Kurds are the most
western oriented community in the Middle East. They are open to modernization.
Kurdish population in the Middle east is 30 million. This is a very strong
western oriented population. It is a very important aspect of the Greater
Middle East initiative. Kurdish cooperation with the U.S. was a breaking
point in their relations with Europe. European concern for Kurds was mainly
moral. I believe every country needs to solve their own domestic problems.
Turkey made great sacrifices concerning its domestic matters. If Turkey
had made peace with Kurds, it would have produced a substantial synergy.
Turkey would have been very strong. There is still an opportunity to realize
this. Many reforms were implemented in the harmonization process. In Iraq,
Europe chose to remain on the outside. However the region is very dynamic
and everything can happen.
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